Random Thoughts

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C'mon, are you serious? So, how about Jesus, did he get what he deserved? And children who are molested?

Frankly, if God renders justice in such an "eye for an eye" manner, I'm wondering what's going to happen to you due to the little pranks you pulled in college. [snip]

Somehow I doubt what textbook you used in elementary school would have made you less of a bad ass in college.

Personally, I liked that goofball Chris from college though... And I think God has more of a sense of empathy and certainly more of a sense of humor than you portray... we were all made in his image, and that fortunately includes comedians and not just uptight Bible thumpers.

Yes, I'm completely serious (otherwise I wouldn't have said it). Although, I knew it wouldn't exactly be a popular thought.

"So, how about Jesus, did he get what he deserved?"

NO! He got what WE deserve. That's the basis of Salvation.
He was humilated, tortured, suffered, and died for those who would follow him.

Do victims of rapist or molestors get what they deserve?

Only partly! They like US deserve much worse! It is only by God's Grace thay we don't all suffer such atrocities!

"We were all made in his image"

Yes, but that includes those molestors and rapists, too! Are you going to defend them?? Sin corrupted God's image and all of us suffer because of that.

"Frankly, if God renders justice in such an "eye for an eye" manner, I'm wondering what's going to happen to you due to the little pranks you pulled in college."

God does definately render justice otherwise He wouldn't be truly loving. A parent who doesn't discipline their children ends up with monsters. Fortunately, Christ suffered, so we don't have to feel the Full wrath of God.

I'm the First to admit I am a sinner and I have done many things for which I am sorry.

I was implying in my former post was that American society has in large rejected God and put its own selfishness first, which ironically is exactly what the old textbook said. If American society was still like that I think we would be much better off. Not perfect, but definately better.

I agree God has a great sense of empathy. He loved US some much that he sent his son for US! Christ knows what we go though and God is extremely forgiving, all we have to do is repent and follow him.

I hope all that makes sense, let me know if I can clarify anything. I was a bit long winded.

BTW, I am still a Goofball, but I have always been serious as well.

Luke 4 18-19 (NRSV)

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anoited me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.


Chris, look into the eyes of the suffering and the oppressed of this world, spend time with those who have come to see God as their only advocate and friend in a society that rejects them and try to preach the Gospel as you have come to understand it. See of the Spirit will dance upon amongst your poison. But, hey, why should I even bother? Maybe I’m just as arrogant and thoughtless as you are, just on the opposite pole (of course, I don’t really believe that, which might make me even more so and a liar as well). Besides, even Morning Star can quote the scripture when it is needed.

Hey Chip,

I'm a bit confused at where your coming from in your comment. What did I say that was untrue or unloving that you take as thoughtless?

Certainly the orginal post was short and I could have explained things more completely--There is an issue of finding time, I always find comments on posts easier and less time consuming--but sometimes done in the heat of the moment, so not as complete as could be either.

My main tenets are that:
1. We are all sinners and deserve the worst.

2. Some of us suffer greatly in this world, while others only by God's grace don't. (The need and reasons for suffering are too complex to go into here.)

3. Only through Christ can we overcome that suffering and find hope for this life and the one to come.

What I was trying to say to Amy was that for God to be loving he must be Just as well. The old testement had to be fulfilled and so did the punishment, which Christ took on. However, those who don't accept Christ in the end will suffer and deserve what they receive.

People who come to faith in Christ usually do so because they are convicted of their sins. They feel guilty about what they have done and know it was wrong. Thankfully God's love can take that pain and guilt away. Society though tries to comfort that guilt with "things" rather than God -- which is why it is so hard for the rich to come to God.

Well, I don't know about you all, but from what you say, I am definately going to hell. Course, I don't happen to actually beleive in it, so that may pose a bit of a problem...as well as for the other 4 billion people or so on Earth who aren't Christian, but hey, I'll have a lot of company. Personally though, as long as hell doesn't have homework or grading I'm not too worried. It would be a lot worse if it were each person's personal Sysiphus (sp?) The idea of people being judged and punished strikes me as a very human concept though. The more pagan idea of evil simply existing as natural counter part to good strikes me as far more realistic. How good (or not) a person decides to be often (but not always) dictates their happiness and quality of life. Intrinsic motivation to do good as opposed to fear of punishment.

This passage of Luke is central to my personal theology. Through Jesus, we have a picture of a God that enters into solidarity with those suffering…. See, for you it seems, suffering is largely the just the result of sin or, more likely, the JUST result of sin (though you admit the origins of suffering are complex). I contend that suffering is a central part of SIN (big letters). Suffering, objectification, oppression, dehumanization are all coiled like repulsive snakes around The World of the Gospel of John, the world defined by fear, hate, victimization and agony. In this world, God stands with those victimized, even to the point of dying as a criminal on a Roman cross. God stands against suffering as a deeply tangible evil…as a wise pastor reminded me today, Jesus also reviles the powerful that make neat moral systems to explain away victimization.

Yes, I affirm that we are all sinners, but God certainly doesn’t seem to think we deserve what we get, or, at least, God loves us far beyond our capacity to hate Him/Her or ourselves…and our capacity to imagine…rendering what is or is not disserved utterly moot I would even say that such a reality died the day Jesus rose .
You see Chris, when you blithely say that, in the end, we all deserve what we get, you tell every rape victim, every molested child, every cashier that was shot for a few bucks, every kid that goes to bed at night with sore teeth because mom and dad can’t afford a dentist, every starving family, every person whose soul cries out to God in agony that God has no words of comfort for them, that God looks at their plight as the natural result of their lowliness, that hope in the resurrection is a sham and the world of Sin continues to define them, even unto death.. In doing this, you negate the Gospel .....Now, do I think this is what you intended to do? No, of course not!

Really, I think you wanted to make a quick comment on victims and you did it in a very tempting way. Assuming that everybody deserves what they get, that nobody is really a victim, it neatly takes care of our moral responsibility to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned…ect..(Matt: 25: 31-46). But, do I think you wrote this as a way to shirk your own moral responsibility? No, not really. I think believing in a neat moral universe in which true, unjust tragedy never really happens is tempting; it makes us feel on firm ground. But, in a way, that makes it even worse. In the short period of time you had to comment on human suffering and victim hood, you choose to preserve your sense about the workings of the universe rather than speak words of compassion and love to the afflicted.

I’d at least like to say that we all do this from time to time, I’m hardly a saint….but you have the blog, read by, well….I don’t really know how many people and we’re both Christians and tend to get painted with the same brush.

Thanks for your insight Chip, I appreciate your comments.

I think that we really agree on much. Part of the reasoning for my original post was the fact the America has become such a "victim society", i.e., I'm entitled becuase of my suffering to get money. Yes my post was blunt and indeed there are many victims, but none innocent. However, that doesn't take away God's compassion (or mine) for the victims. We both know that Christ became a victim for us becuase of his love for us, who deserve to be victims of the worst. Christians are even called to become victims and suffer for the Gospel. So, I don't think I agree with you that suffering is an evil, but rather a consequence of evil.

I do have burden to help those in need, the victims of finances, health, crime, etc. But it is a struggle, when do you help those who are in need with money and when are merely enabling them to be lazy. It's one reason I really like rescue missions, since they really try to follow through with people and seek to fulfill both physical and spiritual needs. Certainly we can't just throw money at things, all have to get "dirty" and help the least as, Christ himself did, some of us are called to do so in different ways even so nearly all us are lacking in how well we do so.

You are right in saying that I believe "unjust tragedy never really happens". God is supremely Just and as the world follows his Will nothing truly unjust happens. Now that doesn't mean things work out to be "fair". So perhaps we're just playing semantics. Is it fair that someone is sleeping on the street tonight and I have a warm bed? No, of course not. But a homeless persons suffering is something that apart from Christ we All deserve--and at some point to varying extents we all share in that suffering. It is by God's grace that we are not there on the street as well.

Lastly, when I said in the end, we all deserve what we get or what has been given by Christ, I meant in THE END, which maybe wasn't entirely clear. When Final Judgement comes we will either be judged on our sinful lives (and get what we deserve) or on Christ's perfect life.

I just have to say... Well said, Chip... I guess for those of us who dedicate our life's work to help people who are less fortunate and truly are victimized, particularly INNOCENT children, your comments in that thread, Chris, are in the very least naive and at the very worst offensive. It reminds me of an abortion video the Catholic church made those of us who were being confirmed watch... it showed the aborted babies in purgatory... That's about the time I gave the heave ho to Catholicism since I did not want to be associated w/a God who would punish innocent babies. We have the luxury to ponder the semantics of this issue, but the children I worked w/in inner city Phoenix were more worried about whether their father was going to sexually abuse their sister or what gang they needed to join to avoid being beaten beyond recognition. I prefer to think that this type of tragedy is Satan's work or somehow out of God's realm to control, not God's punishment for imperfection. If you see tragedy as Satan's work, then there are in fact "victims" and if those victims are children in my mind they are also "innocent."

Anyway, this is the first time I read your blog, Chris, and I gotta say I'm pretty shocked by the content. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were very prejudiced, particularly against homosexuals. I'm wrong, right? Please say I'm wrong...

Amy-

I'll wait to see what Chip has to say about my last comment, while I don't expect him to agree with everything, it was clear that he did not understand my main point. Maybe it would have been clearer, if I entitled my post simply "Innocent?" instead.

Also, I'm not Catholic and don't believe in purgatory. I believe Christs sacrafice was complete and sufficient to cover all sins.

I'm not sure what content shocked you, but perhaps it at least made you think and question your beliefs. Ocassionaly, I'll put up a post that I know will irk some people. As to being prejucdiced, only to the extent that I judge all sin as being evil against God. Certainly, I would say that homosexuality is sinful and that promoting it as an acceptable practice is wrong. However, I am opposed to the Fred Phelps gang and his ilk and their methods. I believe that homosexuality as well as any sin - lying, stealing, adultry, greed, etc. must be treated as wrong. But simplying condemning acts is not where it stops, Christians must have compassion on other sinners and show them God's Love. I believe 'ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God' -- which I why I say no one is innocent. In my experience people only come to Christ when they know what they have done is wrong and know that God's Love is there to wipe away there tears and that their transgressions have been blotted out by Christ.

"I prefer to think that this type of tragedy is Satan's work or somehow out of God's realm to control, not God's punishment for imperfection."

I believe nothing is outside of God's control, if you believe such, you limit Him and make Him smaller and less significant. I believe the tradgedies you spoke of to be a consequence of Sin, not necessarily a punishment for specific sins.

"If you see tragedy as Satan's work, then there are in fact 'victims' and if those victims are children in my mind they are also 'innocent.' "

Firstly, I already said there are victims, I never implied such a thing--not even in my original post it was about Innocense. Second, as I already stated, I believe ALL are guilty of sin - that includes children. The tradgedies you spoke of all come from other people - gangs, parents, etc. Does Satan tempt people? Certainly, but ultimately it is man who sins and causes evil to others.